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	<title>Comments for On Responsive Development</title>
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	<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas</link>
	<description>Thomas on Responsive Development of Systems and Software</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:02:27 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Waterfall isn&#8217;t dead, but it&#8217;s the wrong viewpoint by Arto Jarvinen</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2010/01/12/waterfall-isnt-dead-but-its-the-wrong-viewpoint/comment-page-1/#comment-6233</link>
		<dc:creator>Arto Jarvinen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:02:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=201#comment-6233</guid>
		<description>What often happens in my experience is that when people see the typical stage-gate project model with project phases and distinct decision points (gates) they map the &quot;phases&quot; of the (technical) development process on this model. So &quot;pre-study&quot; becomes &quot;requirements phase&quot; etc. A more reasonable relationship between the project phases and the (technical) development process was of course already described in e.g. RUP but it&#039;s easy to fall into this linear trap. -Arto</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What often happens in my experience is that when people see the typical stage-gate project model with project phases and distinct decision points (gates) they map the &#8220;phases&#8221; of the (technical) development process on this model. So &#8220;pre-study&#8221; becomes &#8220;requirements phase&#8221; etc. A more reasonable relationship between the project phases and the (technical) development process was of course already described in e.g. RUP but it&#8217;s easy to fall into this linear trap. -Arto</p>
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		<title>Comment on Waterfall isn&#8217;t dead, but it&#8217;s the wrong viewpoint by rockstar</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2010/01/12/waterfall-isnt-dead-but-its-the-wrong-viewpoint/comment-page-1/#comment-6232</link>
		<dc:creator>rockstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=201#comment-6232</guid>
		<description>Thomas, this was very well put:
&quot;Because complete, true, Waterfall can never exist since development is exploration of possibilities and the world around a project is never static. But the time elapsing before you get this feedback is driving your development costs up and the first point of return on your investment into the future.&quot;
That&#039;s just one of the things that make agile better. &quot;

I&#039;m not so sure waterfall will ever go away, but I do agree that companies which adopt agile will have more efficient IT departments. It all comes down to communication amongst stakeholders. Good post Thomas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thomas, this was very well put:<br />
&#8220;Because complete, true, Waterfall can never exist since development is exploration of possibilities and the world around a project is never static. But the time elapsing before you get this feedback is driving your development costs up and the first point of return on your investment into the future.&#8221;<br />
That&#8217;s just one of the things that make agile better. &#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure waterfall will ever go away, but I do agree that companies which adopt agile will have more efficient IT departments. It all comes down to communication amongst stakeholders. Good post Thomas.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Waterfall isn&#8217;t dead, but it&#8217;s the wrong viewpoint by Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2010/01/12/waterfall-isnt-dead-but-its-the-wrong-viewpoint/comment-page-1/#comment-6231</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 07:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=201#comment-6231</guid>
		<description>Well, I didn&#039;t say that Waterfall (whatever that might be) doesn&#039;t work. I&#039;ve also done &quot;both&quot;. I said that taking the viewpoint that figuring everything out before starting (the viewpoint of Waterfall), is not the best view point. You will get better development, products, ROI if you take a completely adaptive viewpoint from the on-set. &lt;em&gt;If&lt;/em&gt; there are things that you really need to figure out first, adjust your approach to do that. And most project will have some of those things. But don&#039;t start out by thinking that you can avoid the cost of adjustment by thinking long and hard from the beginning.

Of course most Waterfall have a period of feedback and adjustment at the end. They have to. Because complete, true, Waterfall can never exist since development is exploration of possibilities and the world around a project is never static. But the time elapsing before you get this feedback is driving your development costs up and the first point of return on your investment into the future.

I truly believe that there are so much business value benefit in taking the &quot;Agile&quot; viewpoint that companies adopting it will outlive companies that doesn&#039;t. Agile isn&#039;t a single thing and definitely not a silver bullet. So I&#039;m not really talking about the Waterfall/Agile religious war.

It will be the viewpoint that ensuring early, continuos and concrete feedback, and continuously adjusting to it with the lowest possible cost, that will be the competitive advantage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I didn&#8217;t say that Waterfall (whatever that might be) doesn&#8217;t work. I&#8217;ve also done &#8220;both&#8221;. I said that taking the viewpoint that figuring everything out before starting (the viewpoint of Waterfall), is not the best view point. You will get better development, products, ROI if you take a completely adaptive viewpoint from the on-set. <em>If</em> there are things that you really need to figure out first, adjust your approach to do that. And most project will have some of those things. But don&#8217;t start out by thinking that you can avoid the cost of adjustment by thinking long and hard from the beginning.</p>
<p>Of course most Waterfall have a period of feedback and adjustment at the end. They have to. Because complete, true, Waterfall can never exist since development is exploration of possibilities and the world around a project is never static. But the time elapsing before you get this feedback is driving your development costs up and the first point of return on your investment into the future.</p>
<p>I truly believe that there are so much business value benefit in taking the &#8220;Agile&#8221; viewpoint that companies adopting it will outlive companies that doesn&#8217;t. Agile isn&#8217;t a single thing and definitely not a silver bullet. So I&#8217;m not really talking about the Waterfall/Agile religious war.</p>
<p>It will be the viewpoint that ensuring early, continuos and concrete feedback, and continuously adjusting to it with the lowest possible cost, that will be the competitive advantage.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Waterfall isn&#8217;t dead, but it&#8217;s the wrong viewpoint by rockstar</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2010/01/12/waterfall-isnt-dead-but-its-the-wrong-viewpoint/comment-page-1/#comment-6230</link>
		<dc:creator>rockstar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=201#comment-6230</guid>
		<description>Wow. This statement &quot;I strongly believe that the viewpoint that Agile have is going to be, will have to be, the way all developing organisations will have to take in the future.&quot; is waaaaayyyyy over the top. I&#039;ve done both methodologies. Agile is better. But Waterfall also works. To say it doesn&#039;t work is either naive or misleading. The truth of the matter is that when doing Waterfall, there was still a period of feedback and adjustment involved. Unfortunately it was at the end instead of being embraced up front. But to say Waterfall is wrong, doesn&#039;t work, or will be a thing of the past is ridiculous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. This statement &#8220;I strongly believe that the viewpoint that Agile have is going to be, will have to be, the way all developing organisations will have to take in the future.&#8221; is waaaaayyyyy over the top. I&#8217;ve done both methodologies. Agile is better. But Waterfall also works. To say it doesn&#8217;t work is either naive or misleading. The truth of the matter is that when doing Waterfall, there was still a period of feedback and adjustment involved. Unfortunately it was at the end instead of being embraced up front. But to say Waterfall is wrong, doesn&#8217;t work, or will be a thing of the past is ridiculous.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Waterfall isn&#8217;t dead, but it&#8217;s the wrong viewpoint by Joakim</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2010/01/12/waterfall-isnt-dead-but-its-the-wrong-viewpoint/comment-page-1/#comment-6229</link>
		<dc:creator>Joakim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jan 2010 14:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=201#comment-6229</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a good post, Thomas! This sentence was simply awesome: &quot;It is the avoidance of this cost by reducing it that is Agile, and by avoiding it by avoiding the adjustment that is Waterfall.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a good post, Thomas! This sentence was simply awesome: &#8220;It is the avoidance of this cost by reducing it that is Agile, and by avoiding it by avoiding the adjustment that is Waterfall.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Excellence doesn&#8217;t come from Cost/Benefit analysis by Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-6192</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 11:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/#comment-6192</guid>
		<description>Agreed! And maybe I&#039;m focusing on the &quot;convince yourself&quot; here. But as you point out, sometimes there are bigger steps, or maybe strategies, that you find possible. And then you surely should find whatever facts you can to support the decision.
But maybe that is not how I think about Excellence. To me Excellence is something much bigger than simply improvement to the max. Excellence must lay in the hearts of every employee, so it is built on trust (in that everybody is indeed striving for excellence), and belief (in that you can see what things bring excellence).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed! And maybe I&#8217;m focusing on the &#8220;convince yourself&#8221; here. But as you point out, sometimes there are bigger steps, or maybe strategies, that you find possible. And then you surely should find whatever facts you can to support the decision.<br />
But maybe that is not how I think about Excellence. To me Excellence is something much bigger than simply improvement to the max. Excellence must lay in the hearts of every employee, so it is built on trust (in that everybody is indeed striving for excellence), and belief (in that you can see what things bring excellence).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Excellence doesn&#8217;t come from Cost/Benefit analysis by Arto Jarvinen</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-6191</link>
		<dc:creator>Arto Jarvinen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/#comment-6191</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for small steps of improvement; in fact, if you can&#039;t implement a small improvement then you surely can&#039;t implement a big one. Basically I think the need to build a case for an improvement is similar to the need to build a case for a product development effort. You have to convince yourself and your managers that the investment will be profitable. You can develop small products during your lunch hours, under management radar, but it&#039;s a bit of a challenge to develop a whole new car during your lunch hours, even if done in small increments :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for small steps of improvement; in fact, if you can&#8217;t implement a small improvement then you surely can&#8217;t implement a big one. Basically I think the need to build a case for an improvement is similar to the need to build a case for a product development effort. You have to convince yourself and your managers that the investment will be profitable. You can develop small products during your lunch hours, under management radar, but it&#8217;s a bit of a challenge to develop a whole new car during your lunch hours, even if done in small increments <img src='http://www.responsive.se/thomas/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Excellence doesn&#8217;t come from Cost/Benefit analysis by Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-6189</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/#comment-6189</guid>
		<description>Good comments, Arto. And nice to hear from you again! I like the bit about &quot;a passionate presentation&quot;!

I tend to think about this as one case where lack of communication of vision and direction also sometimes puts decisions &quot;in the wrong hands&quot;. Of course there are different levels of decisions, but agile and lean puts much of the decision making in the team since that is where the best knowledge of the issue tend to be available. What I often see is that teams have not been given the mandate to take improvement decisions except on a very small scale.

Let&#039;s talk about the decision to invest in development of an automated testing framework. This might be a large investment, and in many cases this decision will be delegated upwards. It would then be prioritized according to business value, which with all probability put it a fair bit down the backlog, because in the context of cost/benefit analysis, particularly in the lifespan of a project, it will be hard to present &quot;admissible evidence&quot;. Such evidence could also risk putting unnecessary need of detailed knowledge of technical details on managers.

Sometimes a team will cause this because they think an automated testing framework is only valuable if it is &quot;complete&quot;. So they calculate the cost as one (big) cost. As they are sure that this is outside their mandate they will push the decision upwards. I strongly believe that excellence, and any improvement at all, need to be based in teams and team members. And if the team was truly expected to deliver quality, tested, valuable software, they should have the mandate to take this type of decision. Of course they could not choose implement this in a way that prevented them to deliver quality, tested, valuable software for a long period. So they need to learn to do this kind of improvement in a gradual fashion.

But improvement &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a gradual thing. There are no quantum leaps, but you can always make a small improvement over the current state. And this is continuous improvement.

Of course then the team need to be aware of some important visions, such as the expected lifespan of the product they are working on. If the product is expected to live just another year, this is a different scenario that if this was the next generation of their cash-cow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good comments, Arto. And nice to hear from you again! I like the bit about &#8220;a passionate presentation&#8221;!</p>
<p>I tend to think about this as one case where lack of communication of vision and direction also sometimes puts decisions &#8220;in the wrong hands&#8221;. Of course there are different levels of decisions, but agile and lean puts much of the decision making in the team since that is where the best knowledge of the issue tend to be available. What I often see is that teams have not been given the mandate to take improvement decisions except on a very small scale.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s talk about the decision to invest in development of an automated testing framework. This might be a large investment, and in many cases this decision will be delegated upwards. It would then be prioritized according to business value, which with all probability put it a fair bit down the backlog, because in the context of cost/benefit analysis, particularly in the lifespan of a project, it will be hard to present &#8220;admissible evidence&#8221;. Such evidence could also risk putting unnecessary need of detailed knowledge of technical details on managers.</p>
<p>Sometimes a team will cause this because they think an automated testing framework is only valuable if it is &#8220;complete&#8221;. So they calculate the cost as one (big) cost. As they are sure that this is outside their mandate they will push the decision upwards. I strongly believe that excellence, and any improvement at all, need to be based in teams and team members. And if the team was truly expected to deliver quality, tested, valuable software, they should have the mandate to take this type of decision. Of course they could not choose implement this in a way that prevented them to deliver quality, tested, valuable software for a long period. So they need to learn to do this kind of improvement in a gradual fashion.</p>
<p>But improvement <em>is</em> a gradual thing. There are no quantum leaps, but you can always make a small improvement over the current state. And this is continuous improvement.</p>
<p>Of course then the team need to be aware of some important visions, such as the expected lifespan of the product they are working on. If the product is expected to live just another year, this is a different scenario that if this was the next generation of their cash-cow.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Excellence doesn&#8217;t come from Cost/Benefit analysis by Arto Jarvinen</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/comment-page-1/#comment-6187</link>
		<dc:creator>Arto Jarvinen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/15/excellence-doesnt-come-from-costbenefit-analysis/#comment-6187</guid>
		<description>I kind of agree with you Thomas on this. But still you typically need to convince a number of stakeholders with different interests (including some P&amp;L-oriented managers) along the way to a sustainable improvement. I tend to think of this process as the building of a *case* for your idea, much like in the proceedings of a court of law. You need a number of &quot;admissible evidence&quot; that you weave together into a case for your idea. Some evidence may be in money terms, some in terms of other types of benefits. (A passionate presentation will go a long way too.) And once on the path toward the ultimate goal you need to keep the fire burning. -A</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kind of agree with you Thomas on this. But still you typically need to convince a number of stakeholders with different interests (including some P&amp;L-oriented managers) along the way to a sustainable improvement. I tend to think of this process as the building of a *case* for your idea, much like in the proceedings of a court of law. You need a number of &#8220;admissible evidence&#8221; that you weave together into a case for your idea. Some evidence may be in money terms, some in terms of other types of benefits. (A passionate presentation will go a long way too.) And once on the path toward the ultimate goal you need to keep the fire burning. -A</p>
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		<title>Comment on Recommended Reading by Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.responsive.se/thomas/2009/09/02/recommended-reading/comment-page-1/#comment-6181</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 17:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.responsive.se/thomas/?p=153#comment-6181</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Östen! That seems to be a good suggestion. I have not read it myself but I&#039;m putting it on my own list of books to read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Östen! That seems to be a good suggestion. I have not read it myself but I&#8217;m putting it on my own list of books to read.</p>
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